Maita - B3 Post

What are the current problems with Revit/BIM?

I believe that even though Revit and other BIM programs have mostly positive impacts, there are some problems with them. One of my main problems with Revit is the current availability as a program. This may not be considered a huge problem with the program as a whole but I do know a lot of different people who share this same opinion. During coops at Drexel, most students use BIM software like Revit or AutoCAD but more often CAD than Revit. In addition to this, there are little to no classes offered that teach students any sort of BIM. Freshmen have a half quarter course on CAD but that is about it. Revit is also not the most user-friendly program, especially if someone has experience in CAD and think that some of the techniques they have learned could be used in Revit. Things as simple as the move command have different shortcuts and are executed differently between the programs. I believe that this makes it harder for people to initially get the grasp of Revit and may turn some people away from the program.

Revit and other BIM programs have problems addressing other needs of engineers. Advanced structural analysis cannot be performed in many BIM programs which causes engineers to either create their designs in other programs, like SAP2000, or complete the calculations by hand. There is no good way to transfer the data that a user has inputted into Revit to other programs to perform other types of analysis on them. The same goes for HVAC analysis of buildings. Revit gives the user the ability to insert many ducts and vents into their building and to perform an okay flow analysis but to perform any high-level analysis of the building, all data must be input into another program, like eQuest. As stated above and in my post last week about interoperability, Revit currently does not allow the users to efficiently move their models into other programs for advanced analysis and does not offer means to perform the said analysis in the program itself.

Comments
Jordan: I like your point that soon buildings are going to be downloaded by a computer program rather than an engineer. I disagree somewhat with your post, however, I do think there will need to be a human element for design and construction. Your addition of the video was helpful to your point. 

Tyler: I completely agree with your friend Alex on all the problems and struggles that were faced with Revit. I also think that the point of using a personal story helps explain your point. I have experienced a lot of problems with Revit and have been in their shoes with the having to explain how programs work to other employees.

Chris: I like your comparisons between CAD and Revit; I think that Revit is a great program but CAD is always going to have a place in the field. I think CAD can be used for some simpler drawings and Revit is very useful for more complicated drawings or buildings.

Wicker - Current Problems With Revit/BIM

As an Environmental Engineering major, I haven’t had a lot of experience with Revit. My co-ops have involved extensive CAD work and required me to learn and implement add-ons for the program, but I have had very little experience using Revit. To gain insight on some common problems associated with Revit I chose to speak with my friend Alex who is a 5th year Architecture major and is currently working full time at an architecture firm in Malvern. She works with Revit every day and shared with me some of the problems she has with it.

Alex feels that Revit isn’t user friendly, which makes it hard for new people to pick it up quickly. She said that she has spent many hours helping new co-ops figure out how to use basic features of the program. Alex also expressed frustrations about being restricted to orthogonal pieces unless you create a module or family. This adds to a point she made at the beginning of our conversation about AutoCAD being a better option for some tasks such as details or specs. In the end Alex did admit that she enjoys using Revit and has become efficient in it after using it for so many days at work.

Many of Alex’s comments could have been copy and pasted into a forum for multiple computer aided design programs. Every program has its flaws but the greatest problem facing them as a collective is the inability to quickly and efficiently share usable data between platforms. My group read about interoperability during week 3 and what it meant for BIM technology. This is the number 1 problem facing these types of programs. As each improves and adds more features they generate more data that is used within a drawing/model. As we read in the BIM Handbook, It is difficult for someone on a different platform to take the existing file and improve upon it to use in a model of their own. Developers must create additional translators for their programs which costs time and money that could be used to further develop the program itself. As I stated in my previous post, if developers can not create an effective way for these platforms to work together seamlessly than the overall growth of BIM technologies will suffer. However, the current market for these types of programs is unique since a single consumer could be using multiple programs created by different companies to complete a project. This could help incentivize developers to focus more on making their programs work more seamlessly with other data since a program with superior interoperability will be more valuable to consumers in the future.

Sources:

C. M. Eastman, “Chapter 5: BIM for Architects and Engineers,” in BIM Handbook: A Guide to    Building Information Modeling for Owners, Managers, Designers, Engineers, and Contractors, 2nd ed., Hoboken, NJ: Wiley, 2012, pp. 193–261.


Replies:

Chris,

I have worked extensively with AutoCAD over all 3 of my co-ops but never had the opportunity to learn much about Revit. My co-op was with a Civil Site Design team, so CAD was our number 1 tool. I feel that one of the advantages we have as students right now is that we are being exposed to many different computer programs right now which will help us to be able to learn how to use them more easily in the future. We already know that advancements in design technology will continue to change and improve how we as engineers work in the future, so it is critical that we are able to continue to learn an adapt as well.

Thomas,

I am not very familiar with Revit so I asked some friends who are about how they felt about the program. They echoed your posted to a degree. Even though they have been working with Revit for a few years now they are no where close to using the program to its full potential. Some blamed this on what you referred to as the “learning curve” associated with the program. They found it to not be very intuitive so even performing basic tasks could be difficult. It could be especially difficult for older engineers who didn’t grow up in a world filled with technology to quickly adopt these programs even if it would be beneficial for them to do so.

I also agree with your take on Dynamo. After what we were able to find in class it seems like it could be a great first step toward creating a more efficient program all around.

Lauren,
After reading your post I began thinking about how useful a hybrid program of AutoCAD and Revit could be. Civil site designers can easily move between site layouts that reflect the work currently being done by those designing the building its self. It could shorten the total time of projects and save money on design costs. Currently a simple issue with a building footprint or façade sizing could take days to resolve since emails or meetings must take place between multiple parties and then updated files must be transferred and translated into useable forms. Having all this design happen in one centralized place may be able to shorten these processes and make for a more efficient project.
However, the current technology isn’t there yet and having a file with all that data is impossible currently. As BIM technologies advance we may see programs with this kind of versatility become common in our field.

B3: Comparing Revit to Other Drafting/Modeling Programs - Lauren Kujawa

Being an AutoDesk program, Revit and AutoCAD are relatively similar.  The two programs look and function in similar ways, but AutoCAD is primarily used for 2D drafting whereas Revit is obviously BIM software.  AutoCAD uses simple lines to represent things in real life; additional steps need to be taken to draw in 3D in AutoCAD, but in Revit, 3D, elevation, and plan views are created automatically.  Revit also allows for the creation of schedules, cost estimates, quantities, and detecting utility clashes.  These aspects of Revit make the software appealing across multiple industries.  I mentioned in a previous blog post that Revit allows for multiple sectors to come together and model early in the design process rather than later.  This aspect of Revit really streamlines the design process and allow for conflict mitigation before the issues arise.  All of this is capable because of the level of detail that Revit models contain.  AutoCAD is a helpful tool, but it is difficult to see the relationship between lines on the page.  But in Revit, these lines can be modeled in 3D, allowing for an easy visualization of space.

Aside from Revit and AutoCAD, I am familiar with MicroStation.  Out of the 3 programs, I am most familiar with MicroStation, as I use it everyday at work.  In the transportation sector, MicroStation is a very common program to use; personally, I found MicroStation difficult to learn, but once learned, MicroStation is easy to master.  I would say the opposite of Revit.  In my limited Revit experience, I realized Revit was easy to pick up on, as the element pictures make it easy to find what you are looking for in Revit.  However, once the basics are learned, I found Revit difficult to master.  For senior design, we started modeling our building in Revit; a basic model is relatively easy to model in Revit, but making a great Revit model takes time.  The opposite can be said for MicroStation or AutoCAD plans: only so much can be done to plans, and only so much can be done to perfect the plans.  It is difficult for me to comment on deeper aspects of Revit, as I never model in 3D at work, and my Revit experience is limited to the assignments we have done in CAEE 201, AE 390, and this class. 

Source

https://www.pluralsight.com/blog/architecture/autocad-revit-draw-line

Response 1: Thomas Sisson

I really liked your point about Revit lacking a valid and reliable structural analysis program.  I completely agree that SAP should be used for the structural modeling, however it would be extremely convenient and time saving to be able to transfer information and models among the two programs.  I know Revit has structural components, however I personally would prefer to do my structural components in a structural program.  I also agree with your point mentioning the steep learning curve associated with Revit.  I made a similar point in my post, but to reiterate, Revit is easy to pick up on, but hard to master, as a great model takes a great amount of time to produce.

Response 2: Mark Odorizzi

I never would have thought of the disparity between hardware and software development when speaking of the future problems with BIM.  Companies already have to spend large amounts of money on software licenses, and as BIM capacity increases, companies will have to spend large amounts of money to replace computers.  This could eventually cause smaller companies to move away from BIM, which would be a major setback in the industry.  Aside from the financial problems that may arise, I also liked your point about the overdependence on BIM.  When looking for information for my blog post, I came across many discussion boards where older engineers were discussing their hatred for Revit.  A common theme I noticed in their posts was that younger engineers think they can model properly, but in reality the program is fixing all of the problems for them.  The discussion boards also mentioned that some learning is lost when you are taught BIM rather than hand drawings.

Response 3: Jordan Shuster

I liked that you mentioned that BIM will be moving towards an optimization of space while designs become more complex.  I do not draw in 3D at work, so the idea of inputting parameters and having a building spit out seems crazy to me.  In transportation, every road is different, so something like that in the transportation sector seems unlikely.  However, a few years ago, it was commonplace to say that building modeling in that aspect would be unlikely.  The idea of the designer being phased out could be seen as a future problem of BIM, but phasing out the designer may decrease the likelihood of human error.  The modeling process would also speed up, which would cost companies less money.  Projects ideally would get completed at a faster pace, and efficiency would likely increase as well. 

Thach-Week 3

Revit is building information modeling software that allows both designers and contractors have access to the thousands of pieces of information that go into designing a building. Revit is both the present and it shows a glimpse into what the future of design and construction is. Revit is similar to Autocad and other 2-D drafting because Revit allows for simple design in two dimensions. It can be used to create plans, elevations and section drawings. But Revit does so much more than just simple drafting. Revit is classified as a BIM software, meaning it generates and stores data and information on the building being design. Autocad cannot do this. BIM softwares allow the user(s) to analysis the building after its design phase. This means Revit can be used as a construction management tool and can create schedules. Also Revit can be used to analysis the whole life cycle of the building, constantly updating and generating information on the building and the it’s usage. Revit is autocad with all the fixings, it can do the work of Autocad but allows for a more sophistic design. One feature that separates Revit from CAD is the idea of families. In CAD, there is blocks, which are 2-D symbols that represents a certain fixture or appliance. Revit introduces families which are similar to blocks but they include proper information and parameters of the fixture. The fixture now has information like voltage or manufacturer that the design or constructor can use to benefit the project. Revit allows for collaborated design, it allows for more than one person to work on the model at the same time. This is why Revit is so popular in IPD, a new project delivery method that relies on constant team collaboration. Revit meets the needs of the new direction of the industry. The general consensus on IPD and Revit is that Revit is the best software to implement IPD. Many websites on the internet talk about the great capabilities of Revit, and how it should be implemented, to a certain degree these sites are correct. Learning Revit is vital for young engineers, but that being said, learning Autocad is still very important. Because Revit is still progressing, there are certain things that are best suited for Autocad and cannot be done in Revit. For example, electrical single line diagrams cannot be done in Revit and need to be drawn in Cad and imported to a Revit sheet. 

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2014/ENU/Revit/files/GUID-6DDC1D52-E847-4835-8F9A-466531E5FD29-htm.html

https://www.pluralsight.com/blog/architecture/autocad-revit-draw-line

Comments:

Brad,

I think your experience working for General Contractors gives the advantage you talked more creditability. I think your ideas are very helpful in this instance because many of our classmates think of the design components that Revit offers but there are many tools in Revit that are designed with GCs in mind. I think Revit will definitely change contractor’s way of handling projects, because now they have a model that has the ability to eliminate the use of more applications. 

Kerry,
I think you make a couple of really good points about the future problems that come BIM and Revit. I think that some of the problems are problems that exist now, for example smaller firms might not want to implement BIM as much because they don’t have the proper network to support such a large file(s). Hopefully with cloud based storage, this problem won’t be a big deal in future. 

Lauren,

I really think you made a bunch of good points about the relationships between Revit and Autocad. I think your experience in Microstation is helpful in using AutoCad, Ive heard that the two programs are similar as well. Therefore I think Revit wouldn't be too difficult to learn. I think you made a good point about the clash detection in Revit, because it such a useful tool for the industry.

Future Problems with Revit/BIM

Week 4: What are the possible future problems with Revit/BIM?

Some problems that BIM could face in the future include technology becoming too advanced or too simplified. Although a certain amount of user friendly aspects need to be maintained, it would significantly decrease the usability for authorized construction aspects of the program if it were to be made too simple. Along with that, there exist other similar programs which could be described as simpler versions of Revit, such as SketchUp that may be accessed by less advanced users.

In examination of BIM/Revit becoming too advanced too quickly could cause it to be too difficult to learn and not adopted as widely. However, BIM has a sort of monopoly on the construction fields since it is one of the most compatible methods of tying projects together completely. This would deem it very difficult to update, and looking at its history would prove that quick updates or advancement of the program are not the aim of Autodesk corporations. If it were to become too complicated, then all of the older generations within correlated work fields would be unable to perform as well in their jobs. This could lead to greater expenditures in training and other related matters which over time could add up significantly.

Other costs besides those that would have to be invested into necessary training implementations would be due to the program directly. Files containing a large amount of information such as structural and architectural details tend to be quite heavy. If these programs are going to get more detailed, then the files will get even heavier and this will require higher resolution viewing methods along with higher storage systems and rule out people/companies who don’t have the most updated software available for access. 


Comments: 

Mark - I very much agree with your outlook on BIM dependence factor. I never saw this as a downfall but now I can see clearly how too much trust in these types of software could likely get us into trouble. Perhaps even though hand drafting is very much a thing of the past, we should still try to incorporate it into a few college classes or internships so that our generation of engineers has a deeper understanding of methods and design. This could be helpful in aiding us in coming up with better ways to use BIM and get us accustomed to double checking everything in our computerized models instead of trusting them outright.

Cody – I like how you mentioned simple time cutting tasks that BIM can offer as advantages to its users through the use of added commands and coding. Also, I never knew that BIM incorporated energy analysis software. That is quite interesting and must be one of the smaller updates that they keep improving slowly over the years that you had mentioned. While I do agree that it is important for Autodesk to keep listening to its clients, I do believe that it is also important for them to concentrate on listening to the current client base for the best possible improvements to be made.

Lauren – Your post mostly goes to show that even though AutoCAD is a very useful tool, BIM is slightly better with its automated generation of things. For example, in different views such as an elevation, will be automatically created when a user has only created something such as a plan view. I have never heard of MicroStation, but I should look more into it. I do agree that on the surface Revit seems quite simple and easy to follow but mastering it takes a great level of dedication and time. I like how you point out that only so much can be perfected when it comes to AutoCAD and similar programs and therefore it is easier to manage unlike Revit software as one delves deeper into its intricacies.